Author Topic: Retitled: Tavor @ PNP Special Boat Unit  (Read 8832 times)

Wardog

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Retitled: Tavor @ PNP Special Boat Unit
« on: June 14, 2010, 09:34:17 PM »
Moderator's note: This thread has been split off from IMI Tavor with Philippine Marines and was triggered by the following photograph.

Those PNP personnel armed with Tavors ain't SAF. Those men are Members of the Philippine National Police Maritime Patrol Group.... Most SAF personnel are armed with Ferrans Soar....






====== ~~~ ======

who said the Tavor's price is whopping 450,000? According to sir Davinci, the PNP's Tavor for the Special Boat Unit costs only 98,000 pesos, even cheaper than M-4s which the Tavor outperformed in their evaluation:

emphasis mine

Quote
Sir pasensya na, I will not answer your questions about the other weapons, other PNP units and the other issues, I will answer on the Tavor a little though.

The Special Boat Unit, as the name implies operates mainly on board boats and conduct VBSS on interdicted vessels so the unit needs a weapon that is compact, ergonomic and reliable for use in confined spaces. The long M16 is out but its shorter M4 derivatives were considered along with bullpup types like the Tavor.

The Tavor was evaluated along with other M4 types from specialized manufacturers, mostly American ( the kind of tricked M4s we commonly see carried by American soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan).

To make along story story short - the Tavor outperformed the competing M4s in terms of reliability, accuracy, handling and value.

One test among many stood out and which mattered most to the SBU operators - the water and mud immersion test - among the competing weapons, it was the Tavor that continued to perform reliably after it was extracted from the muddy seawater and fired.

To summarize, the PNP SBU Tavor passed the required evaluation and outperformed the M4s in critical tests, and it doesnt cost half a million pesos, just P98,000 which is actually lower than the M4s in the evaluation except for one but which also was the lowest performer.

The SBU Tavor is the CTAR-21 or the compact TAR-21, only 25 inches long, at least 7 inches shorter than most M4s -just perfect for the SBU's roles.  

http://pdff.sytes.net/index.php?showtopic=7545&st=0#entry10593905

what can you say M-4 enthusiasts?  :)
 
« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 06:08:11 AM by Adroth »
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cebupistol

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Retitled: Tavor @ PNP Special Boat Unit
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2010, 10:57:06 PM »
Hopefully everybody on that PNP unit are right handed.

slayermoonlight

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Retitled: Tavor @ PNP Special Boat Unit
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2010, 11:13:43 PM »
and I hope they won't have mental blackout when reloading.  Hehe... you don't have seconds to think in a gunfight.
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Wardog

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Retitled: Tavor @ PNP Special Boat Unit
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2010, 01:50:53 AM »
Hopefully everybody on that PNP unit are right handed.

why?

The TAR-21 is ambidextrous and has ejection ports on both sides.

Quote
  The ejection ports are made on both sides of the weapon, and the right or the left side ejection can be selected by installing the bolt with the ejector mounted on the right or on the left, respectively (and, of cause, this change requires the gun to be partially disassembled).   

http://****/assault/as30-e.htm
"Yall gotta stop ranting, most especially if u did not vote. If yall were rooting for somebody else.then u shuda joined their campaign or voted ATLEAST. Now if you did, and still ur guy ddnt get in,SUCK IT UP! now if it's NoyNoy then Deal with it! Whining like a brat aint gon make a difference,Yall gotta stop hatin & do something dat wud actually do this country good, if that's still possible."

- Maggie Misa ;-)

LightAj

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Retitled: Tavor @ PNP Special Boat Unit
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2010, 04:37:04 AM »
Hopefully everybody on that PNP unit are right handed.

Sir, can you explain to me why are the lefty can't easily handle the tavor? :?
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Adroth

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Re: Retitled: Tavor @ PNP Special Boat Unit
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2010, 06:17:03 AM »
who said the Tavor's price is whopping 450,000? According to sir Davinci, the PNP's Tavor for the Special Boat Unit costs only 98,000 pesos, even cheaper than M-4s which the Tavor outperformed in their evaluation:

Hmmm . . . someone else made roughly the same price claim.


C-TAR AND S-TAR TAVOR that was offered to the AFP was  PHP 97,000.00 this is without duties and taxes and fire arms licenses.  The GENERAL APPROPRIATION ACT OF 2009 Excempt AFP from paying duties and taxes.  


If the following information is accurate, it may explain the inflated prices reported by others.

On IMI-made weapons, I remember meeting an Israeli businessman based in Manila, once told me that the Galils, Tavors, Negevs, etc. are not really very expensive in Israel and he challenges some Fil dealers to get AFP and PNP contracts for him and he will beat whoever is dealing such Israeli made weapons so immorally expensive. I will dig up my cards and contact him and if anyone out there is interested to collaborate with him, please send me a private email and I will set you up with this Israeli gentleman.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 07:13:59 AM by Adroth »
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cebupistol

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Re: Retitled: Tavor @ PNP Special Boat Unit
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2010, 09:12:01 AM »
Yup, the tavor is ambidextrous and has the ejection port on both side but the problem is the bolt has to be specifically either for a left or right side ejection.

It would have been logical for them to make bolt ambidextrous too but unfortunately it is not. Haven't seen a left handed bolt yet and to be uniform, i would guess they won't not risk putting one on their inventory otherwise some of them would really have bad welts and experience when shooting it.

Has somebody tried to turn the bolt and see if it would work changing to left handed operation without replacing the bolt?

Sir, can you explain to me why are the lefty can't easily handle the tavor? :?
« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 09:22:33 AM by cebupistol »

cebupistol

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Re: Retitled: Tavor @ PNP Special Boat Unit
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2010, 09:28:48 AM »
nope, not possible to convert to left handed without buying the left handed bolt (part number - 00.704.3101L)

prairiefire

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Re: Retitled: Tavor @ PNP Special Boat Unit
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2010, 09:29:47 AM »
The Tavor was going for 400k-450k for civvies last MegaMall gunshow. Thats the price ESPINELLI, the then local official distributor of the TAVOR, was quoting. Of course IF ADOPTED, the price should go down bigtime. Israeli-made weapons are usually overpriced anyway. 98k is actually still high, as the Tavor, as marketed by IMI to other countries, actually goes for less than 800 dollars each in bulk.


why?

The TAR-21 is ambidextrous and has ejection ports on both sides.

http://****/assault/as30-e.htm


Cebupistol is right. In order to benefit from its left-handed ejection port, you need to REPLACE the right-handed bolt with a LEFT_HANDED bolt, not an easy thing to do in a gunfight. And lefties using the standard right-hand bolt will get very hot brass at high speed into their noses!

The TAVOR is no doubt a good rifle, but it still suffers from problems unique to bullpups:

1) You cannot adjust the stock length. If it is too long or short, too bad, so sad. In these days of body armor wear, the inability to adjust stock length is a very glaring minus!

2) You can shoot from one specific shoulder only
, as shooting on the other shoulder will mean an experience you will not soon forget  :lol:.

3) Malfunctions are much more difficult to clear
on bullpup rifles than on rifles of standard configurations. You could get killed because of this.

4) Though not very important anymore, using bullpups for hand-to-hand combat is, well, just not conducive to the user's longevity. Bullpups with bayonets, anyone?

The above reasons, and more, are why the americans and russians never really considered bullpup rifles for their troops. Give me an M4A1 anytime!

Wardog

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Re: Retitled: Tavor @ PNP Special Boat Unit
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2010, 02:41:19 PM »
Yup, the tavor is ambidextrous and has the ejection port on both side but the problem is the bolt has to be specifically either for a left or right side ejection.

It would have been logical for them to make bolt ambidextrous too but unfortunately it is not. Haven't seen a left handed bolt yet and to be uniform, i would guess they won't not risk putting one on their inventory otherwise some of them would really have bad welts and experience when shooting it.

Has somebody tried to turn the bolt and see if it would work changing to left handed operation without replacing the bolt?


ok sir, thanks for the clarification.

according to sir Davinci, the SBU Tavors have been properly reconfigured for their left handed operators.
"Yall gotta stop ranting, most especially if u did not vote. If yall were rooting for somebody else.then u shuda joined their campaign or voted ATLEAST. Now if you did, and still ur guy ddnt get in,SUCK IT UP! now if it's NoyNoy then Deal with it! Whining like a brat aint gon make a difference,Yall gotta stop hatin & do something dat wud actually do this country good, if that's still possible."

- Maggie Misa ;-)

cebuboy

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Re: Retitled: Tavor @ PNP Special Boat Unit
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2010, 06:06:07 PM »
Has somebody tried to turn the bolt and see if it would work changing to left handed operation without replacing the bolt?


Ahh, iirc, while fiddling with our friends Tavor, you cant turn it around for left hand operation the pin wont fit. Have to get a lefty bolt.
“Fighting the enemy in battle is my duty as a soldier; taking on the dacoits in the train was my duty as a human being.” - Bishnu Shrestha

cebupistol

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Re: Retitled: Tavor @ PNP Special Boat Unit
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2010, 07:41:15 PM »
I wonder how much kaboom can the Tavor handle from a bullet setback or from those erroneously called mystical demolition ammo.

I would not want to experience that so close to my face.

cebuboy

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Re: Retitled: Tavor @ PNP Special Boat Unit
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2010, 07:51:11 PM »
Maybe a facial at the very least.  :D
“Fighting the enemy in battle is my duty as a soldier; taking on the dacoits in the train was my duty as a human being.” - Bishnu Shrestha

prairiefire

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Re: Retitled: Tavor @ PNP Special Boat Unit
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2010, 11:18:46 AM »
Hohoho, a KaBoom with a bullpup rifle will result in immediate and irrevocable reconfiguration of the user's face, ALWAYS with way FUGLY results.

prairiefire

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Re: Retitled: Tavor @ PNP Special Boat Unit
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2010, 11:27:33 AM »


according to sir Davinci, the SBU Tavors have been properly reconfigured for their left handed operators.
20 percent or so of  the population is left-handed, the rest right-handed.

So that basically disables the left-handed-bolt / ejection Tavors for use by EIGHTY PERCENT of the PNP Maritime Unit, just to cater to left-handers? 

Imagine, in an emergency, right-handed Juan grabs his left-handed buddy's TAVOR for immediate use. Upon firing the FIRST shot, Juan will immediately and fully realize, after the pain has subsided, the errors in his superiors' ways... :jeez:

Not smart, IMHO, not smart. And I wonder, what is talaga the official rifle of the PNP, the FERFRANS, or now the TAVORS? Ye Gads, the arms procurement schizophrenia of the PNP... :jeez: :bash:

It's as if every PNP branch now wants its own japorms weaponry. Sanamagan...