Author Topic: Retitled: Surface Attack Aircraft (SAA) / Lead-In Fighter Trainer (LIFT) project  (Read 1155635 times)

Maverick 13330

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Hello all, i am new to forum. And i am not really know well of Phillipines 's situation.
So Phillipines airforce is decided to buy FA-50, 12 in all as i know. But FA-50 is still on development, is that a little risky?
And is it a little small scale? Phillipines economy is stronger than VietNam , GDP is twice so maybe you go to a better like old F-16 ?


There's so much discussion about this and its hard to back read everything. But you may wanna read page 8 of this thread or this one http://www.timawa.net/forum/index.php?topic=32033.0 It might enlighten you about some of your questions..
Welcome to timawa.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2013, 03:27:46 PM by Maverick 13330 »

King Cobra

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Hello all, i am new to forum. And i am not really know well of Phillipines 's situation.
So Phillipines airforce is decided to buy FA-50, 12 in all as i know. But FA-50 is still on development, is that a little risky?
And is it a little small scale? Phillipines economy is stronger than VietNam , GDP is twice so maybe you go to a better like old F-16 ?


The FA 50 was already reviewed by our defense planners. If done right, we should be fine. That is also the reason why the PAF chose the FA 50 as a LIFT & not an actual MRF (F16s etc) since we still need time to get back on the bandwagon of having an ok jet in our inventory. There's always a risk no matter what inventory we get. 

There's a lot of factors to consider than GDP alone. For example, Vietnam only has a population of 88 - 92 million people in 2012. Philippines has a population of 97 -103 millions in 2012 (taken from worldpopulationreview.com). Another example is Vietnam only had 1.81 unemployment rate by the end of 2012. The Philippines had 7.1 unemployment rate of the same time (tradingeconomics.com). 

miggye

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Hello all, i am new to forum. And i am not really know well of Phillipines 's situation.
So Phillipines airforce is decided to buy FA-50, 12 in all as i know. But FA-50 is still on development, is that a little risky?
And is it a little small scale? Phillipines economy is stronger than VietNam , GDP is twice so maybe you go to a better like old F-16 ?

First of all, Vietnam IIS a Communist country, ergo their economy is heavily subsidized by the central government. Secondly, since their economy is artificially subsidized, it's cost of living is artificially lower than ours. Check out how much a civil employee makes in actual US$ and also how much their soldiers get paid. Since their soldiers are paid less than ours, they have more money to spend on equipment. Third, since Vietnam produces its own oil( something many here who bring up the Vietnam card don't really know), they don't need to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on logistics. In fact, their military sells their excess oil to earn more budget( and also leads to larger kickbacks). Finally, the VN military owns their own factories to produce clothes and toys for export.

As to having F16s asap, this has been discussed ad nauseum, but I would suggest reading up the thread "why do we need a LIFT?"
Dulce et decorum est, Pro patria mori
De Profundis ad Astra

gombaljaya

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Colonel Nicholas C Parrilla visited Indonesian Air Forces Flying School last March 2013.
101 Training sq, 104 Training Sq and Adisutjipto AFB at Jogjakarta.




source:http://tni-au.mil.id/berita/delegasi-philipine-air-force-kunjungi-adisutjipto

Is this a sign that Philippines Air Forces are seriously preparing for the arrival of the Korean FA-50 Golden Eagle?

"We always consider the Philippines as a good friend, good neighbor and one of our strong partners in the region.”  (Indonesian Ambassador to the Phiilppines Yohannes Kristiarto Soeryo Legowo)

solarprism

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There's so much discussion about this and its hard to back read everything. But you may wanna read page 8 of this thread or this one http://www.timawa.net/forum/index.php?topic=32033.0 It might enlighten you about some of your questions..
Welcome to timawa.

Thank you for your link, i have read it and understand more about why PAF need LIFT more at the moment.

Quote
The FA 50 was already reviewed by our defense planners. If done right, we should be fine. That is also the reason why the PAF chose the FA 50 as a LIFT & not an actual MRF (F16s etc) since we still need time to get back on the bandwagon of having an ok jet in our inventory. There's always a risk no matter what inventory we get.

There's a lot of factors to consider than GDP alone. For example, Vietnam only has a population of 88 - 92 million people in 2012. Philippines has a population of 97 -103 millions in 2012 (taken from worldpopulationreview.com). Another example is Vietnam only had 1.81 unemployment rate by the end of 2012. The Philippines had 7.1 unemployment rate of the same time (tradingeconomics.com).

I see your points, i think maybe push both is better, i mean buy both LIFT and MFR, MFR maybe a little later so you can ready any time.

Quote
First of all, Vietnam IIS a Communist country, ergo their economy is heavily subsidized by the central government. Secondly, since their economy is artificially subsidized, it's cost of living is artificially lower than ours. Check out how much a civil employee makes in actual US$ and also how much their soldiers get paid. Since their soldiers are paid less than ours, they have more money to spend on equipment. Third, since Vietnam produces its own oil( something many here who bring up the Vietnam card don't really know), they don't need to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on logistics. In fact, their military sells their excess oil to earn more budget( and also leads to larger kickbacks). Finally, the VN military owns their own factories to produce clothes and toys for export.

As to having F16s asap, this has been discussed ad nauseum, but I would suggest reading up the thread "why do we need a LIFT?"

Sorry to all, i am forgot to introduce i am Vietnames, the reality is different from what you know. The subsidy is no longer as large as before 1986. The price of gasoline and electricity are very high now, so do the salary is also increased. Viet Nam can produce oil and gasoline but mostly crude oil and sell them out then import gasoline. Vietnam military owns company is correct but the money is mostly returned to government as tax not directly to military funds. The point of my question about economy is that with a big economy like your country that we envy, why there is a long time you purchase almost nothing for military ?

WApinoy

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Thank you for your link, i have read it and understand more about why PAF need LIFT more at the moment.

I see your points, i think maybe push both is better, i mean buy both LIFT and MFR, MFR maybe a little later so you can ready any time.

Sorry to all, i am forgot to introduce i am Vietnames, the reality is different from what you know. The subsidy is no longer as large as before 1986. The price of gasoline and electricity are very high now, so do the salary is also increased. Viet Nam can produce oil and gasoline but mostly crude oil and sell them out then import gasoline. Vietnam military owns company is correct but the money is mostly returned to government as tax not directly to military funds. The point of my question about economy is that with a big economy like your country that we envy, why there is a long time you purchase almost nothing for military ?

Welcome to Timawa Solarprism, your question about why there is a long time you purchase almost nothing for military? It’s hard to answer this i one sentence, I mean is along story. Philippine government is always politics and political leader always prioritise there personal gain in how to hold on longer to their political position especially for the next election. But if you read more about military modernization issue even in this forum alone, it will give more information and good understanding in how the Philippine government handle military modernisation.

davemap

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The point of my question about economy is that with a big economy like your country that we envy, why there is a long time you purchase almost nothing for military ?

Welcome Solarprism to the Forum.

Here my personal opinion Why is it tooking so much time to modernize the AFP
1) From the start after the Edsa Revolution. Its hard to modernize an AFP because of the distrust itself by the government to the AFP because of the numerous coup.
2)The AFP was not prepared when the US base was booted out in the early 90s. no such time to develop as we will go back to the reason no.1. The coup trys were just recent and atmosphere to fund the AFP with so much money is a concern. The AFP just didnt have any room or time to modernize.
3) Budget wise our constitution barred the Defense to get more budget that the Education. For m e This provision should be reviewed and must be based on the GDP of the country instead of the Education budget.
4) Red Tape and Having a Transparent process takes a lot of checking and time.
5) Local insurgency problem gets a large chunk of the military budget operation expense compare to other countries that don't suffer insurgency problems.
6) AFP doctrines are way outdated to the modern warfare thus the mindset of most of the old timers are still in the Vietnam war era. The AFP is still an army dominated organization.

There another thread dedicated for this "Slow modernization..."
""Ano'ng unethical? Talagang gagawin ko! Can you point out to me what law says that I cannot threaten criminals? Shut up!"
Mayor Rodrigo Duterte to CHR

“In our country, hundreds of millions of pesos of taxpayer money are squandered not only through corruption but also through projects that were conceived for worthy purposes but were discontinued and abandoned due to the ‘policy of no continuity.’”

Charito Planas

"Kung Ayaw mong Masaktan Mag-Chess Ka Na Lang"

Robert "Big J" Jaworski

el_commandante

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Hi Solarprism, I am puzzled too about the very slow modernization of the PAF and most of the accomplished projects are very modest compared to Vietnam.


We already have the money and maybe even more than what was reported officially. We just don't know when our leaders will finally act.

Did you read about that news link, it says within the month of May? in fairness it was followed by "hopefully" and we are just following the process. and He did not say what year. :jeez:

I am willing to bet my last twenty dollar that no contract will be signed by the end of May. Because I have heard this before straight from our Defence officials and even our own President.
First it was two F/A18 then followed F16 then back to TA50 in 2011 and then something like a procurement contract by December or end of the year or something like that. (that was in 2011 I think)

Forget about comparing the Philippine Air Force to Vietnam, Bangladesh, and Sri Lanka.
All we have to do is look at Uganda, Eritea, Ethiopia, they have a fleet of aircraft from ranging from SU30 to Mig 29 jets. and even Kenya has a squadron of modernized F5E Tiger jets. and The Philippines? we have absolutely nothing to show off. ( the five basic S211 trainers jets are not counted) The Philippines economy  compared to these African countries is a massive giant. It makes me want want to holler.

If the Philippines really want to have an MRF or LIFT she can have it. 






"Never in the history of mankind where a country owed so much to so few".

Winston Churchill
Prime Minister UK during world war II

miggye

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@ solarprism- my father-in-law and i were part of a team which built a diesel fired power plant barge some time back for the government. that is why i knew of the subsidy and the extra fuel allotment being sold. even then, some generals did ask for "favors" so we could get fuel at "special prices".

anyway, davemap has pretty good answers to your question. fact is, until recently, the military suffered from an image problem. back prior to the EDSA revolution, the armed forces were viewed as the instrument of repression used by the Marcos Dictatorship versus the people of the country. the military later earned a lot of goodwill when many good soldiers helped and backed the EDSA revolution, but much of that goodwill was squandered due to the numerous coups that followed.

then there's the constitution that states that the defense budget could not exceed the education budget. for decades, even the retirement fund for soldiers was factored into this computation. fortunately, it isn't anymore.

added to this is the ongoing insurgencies which tended to consume large amounts of logistics.

finally, there was a previous Modernization Program back in the 90's, but this was hit hard by the Asian Economic Crisis, which saw the Peso fall to less than half the value.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 07:58:44 AM by miggye »
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Hitman

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Meanwhile, we have another problem to face, the fact that we have only few air force pilots meaning we have to recruit and train many of them which is much costlier and time consuming than the jet itself. That is not the only issue here we all know the plans to buy brand new ship and that would require thousands of new sailors and marines meaning the AFP should advertise for new recruitment such as television ads stating "The Air Force needs you to emphasize that the government is doing everything to defend the country and to inform those who wants to serve the country. On the other hand it will help lessen the jobless by hiring thousands of military men.

solarprism

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Thank to everybody, i know more about the situation of PAF. The problem of image from coups is really hard to solve and will take long time.
I read on the topic about LIFT, i think Phillipines can start by sending pilots to train, i think it will take shorter time, because even if PAF have FA-50, you will need to hire some foreign instructors for training. Maybe Phillipines can cooperate with Vietnam or Thailand, Indonesia for that.
About the new ship, it is a must-do, but also how about coast defense missile system, like K-300P Bastion-P. The range will be more than enough of a deterrent to protect fishmans go all small islands near you, besides it will take shorter time than ship training.
And back to the aircraft, FA-50 is chosen because the characteristics and the US system weapons. I know that the weapons in Phillipines Army are mostly American, but the PAF, sorry to said, but has almost no jet, so why not Yak-130 and after that Sukhoi and Mig from Russian, there will be a Maintenance Center in Vietnam of Sukhoi so it will be convenient. 

gombaljaya

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And back to the aircraft, FA-50 is chosen because the characteristics and the US system weapons. I know that the weapons in Phillipines Army are mostly American, but the PAF, sorry to said, but has almost no jet, so why not Yak-130 and after that Sukhoi and Mig from Russian, there will be a Maintenance Center in Vietnam of Sukhoi so it will be convenient. 

Solarprism,..
buy aircraft not only aircraft itself but also the accompanying system, doctrine, rules, syllabus, commonality with others weapons etc.
As you know, Philippines has never use Russian (eastern block) weapons. It will wasting time for basic familiarization to operate and integrating with existing infrastructure.
As example: Indonesian bought Sukhoi series on 2003, than we need more than 3 years to integrated with our system and doctrine.
In 60s, Indonesia is Russian/Soviet weapons user before changed to Western in 70s, so in that chase Indonesia was not start from zero in operating eastern block weapons.

So in my opinion, FA-50 still the best choise for Philippines air Force..
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 07:51:38 AM by gombaljaya »
"We always consider the Philippines as a good friend, good neighbor and one of our strong partners in the region.”  (Indonesian Ambassador to the Phiilppines Yohannes Kristiarto Soeryo Legowo)

solarprism

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Solarprism,..
buy aircraft not only aircraft itself but also the accompanying system, doctrine, rules, syllabus, commonality with others weapons etc.
As you know, Philippines has never use Russian (eastern block) weapons. It will wasting time for basic familiarization to operate and integrating with existing infrastructure.
As example: Indonesian bought Sukhoi series on 2003, than we need more than 3 years to integrated with our system and doctrine.
In 60s, Indonesia is Russian/Soviet weapons user before changed to Western in 70s, so in that chase Indonesia was not start from zero in operating eastern block weapons.

So in my opinion, FA-50 still the best choise for Philippines air Force..

I got your points. I hope PAF will receive new aircrafts soon, and also hope to see a squadron with these roundels together :)



gemini1

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I got your points. I hope PAF will receive new aircrafts soon, and also hope to see a squadron with these roundels together :)



You want the VAF and TNI-AU roundels on the PAF aircrafts? 

redcomet_m

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^i think what solarprism meant is cooperation between our 3 AF. I think someway somehow, our  countries have a common ground and best if we band together.