Author Topic: Multi-Role Vessel (MRV) developments  (Read 304254 times)

baybum7

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Re: Multi-Role Vessel (MRV) developments
« Reply #165 on: December 28, 2012, 11:58:47 AM »
In the original proposal, the MRV was actually going to be a multi-department asset. The PN would operate it, but it would be available for purposes listed by the congressman.

Presumably, these other departments would be pitching in to fund the operation of the vessel. Personally, am all for getting other departments involved in defense.

We all now that there are budget restrictions, but if the ever so wise congressmen think of this as a permanent way of doing things, wouldn't it make the AFP less effective on the original role that they were tasked to do?

Wouldn't this affect how future acquisitions are chosen? More of the items for multi-purpose and not on what is really needed.

On the mastery side, I understand this from a business perspective since even with us, almost everything is shared (multi-roled in your terms I guess). It is effective when talking about efficiency of funds, but this adds stress to personnel and lessens the quality in the long run. Less time in practice, more time in the field means lower quality and a proportional decrease in efficiency to meet standards.

As to how the old saying goes; the jack of all trades, master of none.
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Adroth

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Re: Multi-Role Vessel (MRV) developments
« Reply #166 on: December 28, 2012, 12:57:17 PM »
We all now that there are budget restrictions, but if the ever so wise congressmen think of this as a permanent way of doing things, wouldn't it make the AFP less effective on the original role that they were tasked to do?

Note that everything mentioned in 4threich's article can actually be used for military purposes. Assuming the report is accurate, and not the embellished with an editor's musings, lets parse what's been described:

“The idea of having this type of ship,” he explained, “is to equip the Navy with facilities that can alternately be used as a military transport vessel

Military potential for that goes without saying.

Quote
floating hospital or


Given the nature of amphibious operations, the Marines need a mobile hospital that can go where they are employed. Useful for disaster relief, but a basic necessity for combat ops.

Quote
on-site crisis management command center whenever a big disaster occurs.”

Command, Control, Communications. These are must-have in modern combat.

When employed in a disaster relief scenario, the PN gets to practice using all the elements above in a real-world scenario that has comparable stress levels as actual combat.

How exactly does all of this detract from the AFP's primary mission?
« Last Edit: December 28, 2012, 02:02:00 PM by Adroth »
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talent_ed

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Re: Multi-Role Vessel (MRV) developments
« Reply #167 on: December 28, 2012, 04:14:13 PM »
The cost is too great and these large ships will have a down time from military duties.

It's good to know they can have a peacetime use. Otherwise, it's hard to sell. Ours is ruled by politicians by the way.

I have participated in the rotation of Army battalions in the Visayas years back, the LSVs are doing a good job, however cramped.

Those MRVs or SSVs could do more than redeploy battalions, they could aid in the repatriation of OFWs elsewhere in the world.
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baybum7

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Re: Multi-Role Vessel (MRV) developments
« Reply #168 on: December 29, 2012, 12:07:30 AM »
Note that everything mentioned in 4threich's article can actually be used for military purposes. Assuming the report is accurate, and not the embellished with an editor's musings, lets parse what's been described:

Military potential for that goes without saying. Given the nature of amphibious operations, the Marines need a mobile hospital that can go where they are employed. Useful for disaster relief, but a basic necessity for combat ops. Command, Control, Communications. These are must-have in modern combat.

Strictly speaking, the MRV acquisition (or any other acquisition that would/can benefit multiple agencies) is very good in terms of its versatility to be assigned in different roles and scenarios and would be a good value for money. I can only hope that they would not have this silent pre-requisite of all AFP acquisitions having multiple roles that other agencies should be covering.

Command, Control, Communications. These are must-have in modern combat.

When employed in a disaster relief scenario, the PN gets to practice using all the elements above in a real-world scenario that has comparable stress levels as actual combat.

How exactly does all of this detract from the AFP's primary mission?

Isn't it to protect and defend our sovereignty and to keep the peace and order on a macro scale. I do also understand that they should also help in relief efforts and that in itself also has benefits for the AFP, but what if all the supposed roles that the AFP can do is happening? Disaster, chaos, panic, crime, national security crisis, et al. I don't think our government has the same organization skills as other countries, a very bitter example is with the hostage crisis earlier in Manila. Like hughs example with hurricane katrina, all agencies have their roles and they shouldn't rely heavily on the armed forces to do the field work that the other agencies should be doing.
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Adroth

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Re: Multi-Role Vessel (MRV) developments
« Reply #169 on: December 29, 2012, 12:54:41 AM »
I can only hope that they would not have this silent pre-requisite of all AFP acquisitions having multiple roles that other agencies should be covering.

If that is how the AFP manages to get its equipment . . . then it is a public relations strategy that is worth using.

At this point in time, the average Filipino does not seem to understand the concept of peace-through-deterrence. So if the sight of OFWs stranded overseas, or disaster victims in need of supply is what the voters need to get off their rear-ends and fund the military . . .

. . . then why not?

(Heck, if they package the SAA/LIFT as a supersonic means of getting relief goods to anywhere in the Philippines, I'm all for it -- provided of course that these are still primarily employed for their intended defense-related use)

Quote
Isn't it to protect and defend our sovereignty and to keep the peace and order on a macro scale. I do also understand that they should also help in relief efforts and that in itself also has benefits for the AFP, but what if all the supposed roles that the AFP can do is happening? Disaster, chaos, panic, crime, national security crisis, et al. I don't think our government has the same organization skills as other countries, a very bitter example is with the hostage crisis earlier in Manila. Like hughs example with hurricane katrina, all agencies have their roles and they shouldn't rely heavily on the armed forces to do the field work that the other agencies should be doing.

Exactly how does "branding" a Landing Ship Dock as a "Multi-Role Vessel" excuse other government agencies from performing their functions? What other government agency would have the manpower and expertise to operate a ship of this size and complexity?

The following older discussion might interest you. We actually agree on the key points you raised above . . . with the exception of your opposition to the "marketing efforts" for this ship.

[ARTICLE] Military losing sight of its primary role—to fight and win wars
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 01:11:32 AM by Adroth »
The campaign to establish a Philippine equivalent to DARPA / DAPA / DSTA: http://adroth.ph/srdp_roadmap_darpa/

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4threich

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Re: Multi-Role Vessel (MRV) developments
« Reply #170 on: December 29, 2012, 04:05:35 AM »
OT article
My bad Timawans.

« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 10:05:01 PM by 4threich »
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ginoginoako

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Re: Multi-Role Vessel (MRV) developments
« Reply #171 on: December 29, 2012, 04:31:35 AM »
^ the article was discussed before and quite a few deduced that it was not referring to the MRV/SSV but for a different vessel for the PCG. I'm hoping though tha it really is for the MRV/SSV

phichanad

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Re: Multi-Role Vessel (MRV) developments
« Reply #172 on: December 29, 2012, 06:27:42 AM »
@4th, I was actually expecting more from you on that, cuz it was already discussed several times in Timawa before that this Php8.8b MRRV is a PCG (civilian) project (that's why NEDA was there to make an approval) and not the PN's own MRV project.

It appears that the MRRVs are actually the 10 Japan-made patrol ships that were discussed also several times in this forum.

baybum7

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Re: Multi-Role Vessel (MRV) developments
« Reply #173 on: December 29, 2012, 04:36:23 PM »
If that is how the AFP manages to get its equipment . . . then it is a public relations strategy that is worth using.

At this point in time, the average Filipino does not seem to understand the concept of peace-through-deterrence. So if the sight of OFWs stranded overseas, or disaster victims in need of supply is what the voters need to get off their rear-ends and fund the military . . .

. . . then why not?

I guess that's good and sad at the same time. Meaning the PN can have many capabilities, but with the ignorance of the general public, our AFP may not have some tools they may really need.

(Heck, if they package the SAA/LIFT as a supersonic means of getting relief goods to anywhere in the Philippines, I'm all for it -- provided of course that these are still primarily employed for their intended defense-related use)

Didn't know where that came from, but it sure was funny :lol: haha!

Exactly how does "branding" a Landing Ship Dock as a "Multi-Role Vessel" excuse other government agencies from performing their functions? What other government agency would have the manpower and expertise to operate a ship of this size and complexity?

I guess that's the reality. We can't really base how our agencies are organized from other countries like the US, we're too small and we have lesser funding. But that isn't an excuse to have atleast a general model on where we can base it from, we can look at other countries with almost similar conditions then improve our service. These are all theoretical though.

The following older discussion might interest you. We actually agree on the key points you raised above . . . with the exception of your opposition to the "marketing efforts" for this ship.

[ARTICLE] Military losing sight of its primary role—to fight and win wars

About their marketing efforts, I have nothing against how they market their acquisitions to the congress, it's more of the why. Because our congressmen wouldn't be so happy when the public hears that our government is paying for things that wouldn't have an impact on them directly? The congress doesn't know a single horse manure on what they're talking about in terms of defense capabilities? Although I know the vague reason why, it's probably an insider information why it's so hard to pitch in such acquisitions.

Will read that sir A :D as soon as we can finish preparing for new year's eve that is.

Happy new year everyone! :ctf2:
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 04:45:07 PM by baybum7 »
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Adroth

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Re: Multi-Role Vessel (MRV) developments
« Reply #174 on: December 29, 2012, 04:38:50 PM »
I guess that's good and sad at the same time. Meaning the PN can have many capabilities, but with the ignorance of the general public, our AFP may not have some tools they may really need.

Just because it's "labelled" as "multi-purpose"? Why exactly? Please be specific.

What aspect of this list deprives the AFP of the tools that it needs?

Quote
“The idea of having this type of ship,” he explained, “is to equip the Navy with facilities that can alternately be used as a military transport vessel

Military potential for that goes without saying.

Quote
floating hospital or


Given the nature of amphibious operations, the Marines need a mobile hospital that can go where they are employed. Useful for disaster relief, but a basic necessity for combat ops.

Quote
on-site crisis management command center whenever a big disaster occurs.”

Command, Control, Communications. These are must-have in modern combat.

When employed in a disaster relief scenario, the PN gets to practice using all the elements above in a real-world scenario that has comparable stress levels as actual combat.

The AFP is getting EXACTLY what it needs. It is simply highlighting how it can ALSO be used for purposes other than combat.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 04:42:02 PM by Adroth »
The campaign to establish a Philippine equivalent to DARPA / DAPA / DSTA: http://adroth.ph/srdp_roadmap_darpa/

Don't get mad at China. GET EVEN. Join the movement to defy a Chinese "order".


baybum7

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Re: Multi-Role Vessel (MRV) developments
« Reply #175 on: December 29, 2012, 04:47:29 PM »
Just because it's "labelled" as "multi-purpose"? Why exactly? Please be specific.

What aspect of this list deprives the AFP of the tools that it needs?

The AFP is getting EXACTLY what it needs. It is simply highlighting how it can ALSO be used for purposes other than combat.

Edited:

I totally agree that the MRV is something that the PN would need. What would be more worrying are the future acquisitions.

(sorry sir A, the old reply sounded too disrespectful)
« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 01:58:34 AM by baybum7 »
Democracy: Everybody is speaking at the same time. Sounds more like a market place to me!
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gombaljaya

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Re: Multi-Role Vessel (MRV) developments
« Reply #176 on: January 06, 2013, 07:32:19 AM »
sorry OOT

Is there Timawa members who spotted Indonesian LPD KRI Makassar 590 in Davao port these days?

According this news, she would visit Davao.
http://www.antaranews.com/en/news/86472/indonesia-delivers-aid-to-victims-of-typhoon-bopha
http://english.sina.com/world/2013/0102/543980.html





That proves Philippines need MRV fleets like KRI Surabaya as military fuction or military operations other than war (MOOTW).



"We always consider the Philippines as a good friend, good neighbor and one of our strong partners in the region.”  (Indonesian Ambassador to the Phiilppines Yohannes Kristiarto Soeryo Legowo)

baybum7

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Re: Multi-Role Vessel (MRV) developments
« Reply #177 on: January 06, 2013, 12:39:16 PM »
sorry OOT

Is there Timawa members who spotted Indonesian LPD KRI Makassar 590 in Davao port these days?

According this news, she would visit Davao.
http://www.antaranews.com/en/news/86472/indonesia-delivers-aid-to-victims-of-typhoon-bopha
http://english.sina.com/world/2013/0102/543980.html



That proves Philippines need MRV fleets like KRI Surabaya as military fuction or military operations other than war (MOOTW).

OT reply --

Hi Gombaljaya, I checked both links and they indicated 2 different ships. One said that the KRI Teluk Banten (516) would arrive while the other (sina, sourced from Xinhua) said that it would be the KRI Makassar. I checked another source and it said that it would be the KRI Teluk Banten that would be delivering relief goods from the Indonesian Government. Whichever it is, I agree that they contribute a lot to Navies. Thanks also to the Indonesian Government for extending their hands to the people in need ravaged from the previous typhoon that passed,  :thumbsup:


KRI Teluk Ende (517) - Same LST class of KRI Teluk Banten (516)
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gombaljaya

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Re: Multi-Role Vessel (MRV) developments
« Reply #178 on: January 07, 2013, 08:13:52 AM »
OT reply --

Hi Gombaljaya, I checked both links and they indicated 2 different ships. One said that the KRI Teluk Banten (516) would arrive while the other (sina, sourced from Xinhua) said that it would be the KRI Makassar. I checked another source and it said that it would be the KRI Teluk Banten that would be delivering relief goods from the Indonesian Government. Whichever it is, I agree that they contribute a lot to Navies. Thanks also to the Indonesian Government for extending their hands to the people in need ravaged from the previous typhoon that passed,  :thumbsup:

No mate,..
KRI Makassar already confirm, to carry relief to Davao city.
see official web site of Manado Region main Naval Base (LANTAMAL VIII)

sorry in Indonesian language : http://info.tnial.mil.id/lantamal8/tabid/224/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/541/Default.aspx

free translation using google translator  :evil:
Quote
Relief embarkation from the Government of Indonesia is planned for 3 days starting on Wednesday, January 2, 2013, cargo 2,000 tons of rice were taken from the Logistic storage to the KRI Makassar - 590 by composed personel of Navy and Army from HQ  LANTAMAL VIII, Marines of Naval Base defence batt Bitung,  Army 712 Infantry batt and Army Combat Engineer Detachment Maumbi North Celebes.
Then KRI Makassar - 590 scheduled to depart from Port of Bitung to the Philippines on January 7, 2013 tomorrow.



I am not talking about disaster relief but just about the ship, especially tentang Multi Role Vessel...
so I hope any members of Timawa forum to see that ship in the port of davao.
"We always consider the Philippines as a good friend, good neighbor and one of our strong partners in the region.”  (Indonesian Ambassador to the Phiilppines Yohannes Kristiarto Soeryo Legowo)

miggye

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Re: Multi-Role Vessel (MRV) developments
« Reply #179 on: January 07, 2013, 08:16:13 AM »
thanks for the heads-up gombaljaya. now, if our brothers and sisters down south could get some nice photos of her..... :)
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