Author Topic: Cal .22 TCM pistol and ammunition (ARMSCOR)  (Read 10290 times)

prairiefire

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5263
Re: Cal .22 TCM pistol and ammunition (ARMSCOR)
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2012, 09:57:50 AM »
Cebuboy has a point, mr. miggye.

Steel-cored bullets are notoriously IMPOTENT manstoppers.

Why?

Because they just drill small holes in their targets, without fragmenting or expanding at all. True steel-core projectiles do their killing by pure kinetic energy alone, and small steel core bullets create small puncture wounds only. Now, push that steel-core bullet to rifle velocities ( > 2000 fps ), and maybe its terminal effectiveness is improved a bit, but nowhere that of a fragmenting lead core bullet ( like our issue 5.56mm M193 ), or like that of true hollowpoint or softpoint bullets, which utilize the kinetic energies involved to create multiple wound tracks ( fragmenting bullet )  and / or massively enlarged wound tracks ( hollowpoint / softpoint bullet ).

Steel-core bullets are designed to PENETRATE, period. They are necessary if you will face armored opponents, or opponents behind hard cover. But against opponents in the open, their terminal ballistic effectiveness will be very poor. That is one anecdotal reason why, during the Vietnam War, most terminal recipients of the M193 bullets fired by the americans did NOT survive their wounds, and why most americans shot by the NVA and Cong, using the Com-Bloc issued AK-47 ammo ( steel-cored ) survived their hits.


opus

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6796
Re: Cal .22 TCM pistol and ammunition (ARMSCOR)
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2012, 11:12:00 AM »
Hmm... took the words right out of my mouth sir. Something along the lines of an MP7 pattern gun... Compact enough to be concealable but with the 22 TCM rounds which can produce rifle-like velocities, it will probably be very deadly.


Might not even have to design a new weapon.  A TCM barrel for an Uzi, MAC-11, or MP5 and you have a new PDW.  The round looks a bit longer than a 9mm, hopefully it'll fit in the mag.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 11:32:39 AM by opus »
I have 10,000+ unopened emails.  Just send me a PM.

"When you say 'you and the guys' you mean the Internet, don't you?"

mamiyapis

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3986
Re: Cal .22 TCM pistol and ammunition (ARMSCOR)
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2012, 04:31:18 PM »
Given the fact that Lone Wolf, one of the larger manufacturers/suppliers of Glock aftermarket parts, is contemplating a 22TCM conversion kit for the Glock 17 speaks volumes of the versatility of the round... Hell... any 22TCM PDW could possibly use the ultra-reliable 9mm hi-cap Glock magazines, just like how the Kriss SMG uses Glock 21 magazines because of their inherent reliability.

miggye

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2100
Re: Cal .22 TCM pistol and ammunition (ARMSCOR)
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2012, 10:55:53 PM »
Guys, so sorry i let my hands run away from me :shock: too much caffeine and lack of sleep. so sorry, you are right and i should have known better than that...... (|8|
« Last Edit: February 21, 2012, 08:13:32 PM by miggye »
Dulce et decorum est, Pro patria mori
De Profundis ad Astra

miggye

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2100
Re: Cal .22 TCM pistol and ammunition (ARMSCOR)
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2012, 11:06:29 PM »
Given the fact that Lone Wolf, one of the larger manufacturers/suppliers of Glock aftermarket parts, is contemplating a 22TCM conversion kit for the Glock 17 speaks volumes of the versatility of the round... Hell... any 22TCM PDW could possibly use the ultra-reliable 9mm hi-cap Glock magazines, just like how the Kriss SMG uses Glock 21 magazines because of their inherent reliability.

lone wolf's making a 22TCM conversion.... very interesting and might be worth seeing some time :thumbsup:
Dulce et decorum est, Pro patria mori
De Profundis ad Astra

CatsMeow@TMW

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2373
  • Professional Skeptic
Re: Cal .22 TCM pistol and ammunition (ARMSCOR)
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2012, 12:25:45 AM »
A very loud fire-breathing Glock. Now that would be a sight to see. All that would be needed is a barrel swap.
MY GARDEN IS SMALLER THAN YOUR ROME, BUT MY PILUM IS HARDER THAN YOUR STERNUM

mamiyapis

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3986
Re: Cal .22 TCM pistol and ammunition (ARMSCOR)
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2012, 01:01:31 AM »
Crap... I just realized a re-barreled Glock 17 with a brace of 33-rounders in a RONI/KPOS/HERA kit is already just that... a 22TCM firing PDW... No need to get fancy and creative at all!

Paging ARMSCOR! This could be your ticket into the PDW world! :thumbsup:

Adamas

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 93
Re: Cal .22 TCM pistol and ammunition (ARMSCOR)
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2012, 02:20:47 AM »
Doc Prairie,
another educational info from you  :bravo:
during the Vietnam War, most terminal recipients of the M193 bullets fired by the americans did NOT survive their wounds, and why most americans shot by the NVA and Cong, using the Com-Bloc issued AK-47 ammo ( steel-cored ) survived their hits.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2012, 02:22:58 AM by Adamas »

miggye

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2100
Re: Cal .22 TCM pistol and ammunition (ARMSCOR)
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2012, 08:19:36 PM »
Crap... I just realized a re-barreled Glock 17 with a brace of 33-rounders in a RONI/KPOS/HERA kit is already just that... a 22TCM firing PDW... No need to get fancy and creative at all!

Paging ARMSCOR! This could be your ticket into the PDW world! :thumbsup:

@sir mamiyapis- almost what i was thinking :) but was thinking of my lolo's G18 instead  :twisted: :thumbsup:
Dulce et decorum est, Pro patria mori
De Profundis ad Astra

miggye

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2100
Re: Cal .22 TCM pistol and ammunition (ARMSCOR)
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2012, 08:29:00 PM »
Doc Prairie,
another educational info from you  :bravo:
during the Vietnam War, most terminal recipients of the M193 bullets fired by the americans did NOT survive their wounds, and why most americans shot by the NVA and Cong, using the Com-Bloc issued AK-47 ammo ( steel-cored ) survived their hits.

Sir Adamas, i would really like to know your source of this info. purely professional, you understand. i want to see how he/she/they came out with this assertion, and if they took into consideration the very effective first aid/trauma doctrine the US has. everything you see in medical television series, from ER, Grey's Anatomy, etc. on down, if they have an MD as an adviser, could trace its lineage to the Trauma tents of the Vietnam War. I trained as an ER/Trauma physician, even if i rarely use that knowledge nowadays, and many of the stuff i did had its roots in the jungles. You could legitimately claim that Trauma/ER med started in Vietnam. add to that, the NVA/VC had no equivalent and were miles away from their own aid stations. 
Dulce et decorum est, Pro patria mori
De Profundis ad Astra

cebuboy

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1477
  • low speed high drag chairborne operator
“Fighting the enemy in battle is my duty as a soldier; taking on the dacoits in the train was my duty as a human being.” - Bishnu Shrestha

miggye

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2100
Re: Cal .22 TCM pistol and ammunition (ARMSCOR)
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2012, 08:36:25 AM »
my thanks, sir Cebuboy, but had this data in my netbook awhile back  :thumbsup: would just want to know if the assertions were just made due to the lethality of the wound, period, or were there other factors to be considered, i.e. medical help.......
Dulce et decorum est, Pro patria mori
De Profundis ad Astra

prairiefire

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5263
Re: Cal .22 TCM pistol and ammunition (ARMSCOR)
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2012, 10:27:46 AM »
Both, Mr. Migs.

Noted ballisticians like Dr. Martin Fackler, who actually studied AK-47 gunshot wounds while a US military surgeon in the Vietnam War and who is the present Chairman of the International Wound Ballistics Association; Dr. Gary Roberts, who actually tested the M43 round of the AK on 10 percent ballistic gelatin, and firearms expert Peter J. Kokalis, who observed the terminal effects of the M43 AK round in the El Salvadoran Civil War, all came to the same conclusion, albeit at different times and places, that the M43 steel-core 7.62x39mm round has remarkably MILD terminal ballistic effects, especially if compared to the devastating capability of the 5.56mm M193 round.

In fact, Dr. Fackler and Mr. Kokalis have compared the wound track of the M43 AK bullet to that OF THE +P .38 SPECIAL BULLET. In other words, it creates a wound not much different from that made by a hot revolver round. Deadly, but not very...

In comparison, the 5.56mm M193 round, if it hits human tissue within its fragmenting velocity envelope ( 2500 fps or more ), creates wounds so bad sometimes it is hard to believe that such a tiny bullet could destroy so much human tissue. Timawan Cebuboy has some pics of the wounds the M193 creates, and you have to see them to believe them.

Of course, the more advanced medical care of the Cano no doubt contributed to their much higher survival rates, but still...  (|;)

In my orthopedic practice, I occasionally see open fractures created by these bullets, and it is always a full-scale struggle to try to save the leg / arm / whatever that was hit by the M193. Baaad bullet, that...


cebuboy

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1477
  • low speed high drag chairborne operator
Re: Cal .22 TCM pistol and ammunition (ARMSCOR)
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2012, 06:17:17 PM »
An example of m193 that fragmented in tissue.  :)

http://www.timawa.net/forum/index.php?topic=17111.0
“Fighting the enemy in battle is my duty as a soldier; taking on the dacoits in the train was my duty as a human being.” - Bishnu Shrestha

miggye

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2100
Re: Cal .22 TCM pistol and ammunition (ARMSCOR)
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2012, 10:24:14 PM »
@ sir Doc PrairieFire, many thanks. you understand, my question was purely professional in nature. (well and a little bit of history thrown in).  :D even though i do clinical work nowadays (and a lot of other non-med stuff for my father-in-law's consultancy), i guess after 15 years of training and practice, ER med is still hard to shake off.

did a lot of GSW work in training and in practice, ad nauseum, but never had any experience with rifle ammo. all patients were either .45, 9mm, .38, super .38, .380, and 22lr. worse i had was as an intern, an NBI agent went amok in NBI headquarters and shot 3 fellow agents. i think i spent the better of three hours pulling out 20 rounds of different calibers from his body due to the return fire. all the while, with a cop and an NBI agent collecting all the lead in evidence bags at my shoulder. all that damage to the inner tissue of the torso gives the term macerated a whole new meaning
Dulce et decorum est, Pro patria mori
De Profundis ad Astra