Author Topic: Merged: L39 / L159 for the PAF  (Read 18563 times)


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Re: Merged: L39 / L159 for the PAF
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2005, 03:43:53 PM »
This L159 aircraft is a good choice but how much is it?  Will there be a solid technical support for its parts especially the engine (not popular).  If only if its possible to fit it with another jet engine powerplan like an GE F404 (same with F16) or J85 (F5).  What are other aircrafts that uses Honeywell F124-GA-100.

South Korean AT50 Golden Eagle jets will be sold at $25 million a piece once it is available for production & export.  Are we gonna acquire a jet with that price tag? We were offered by Israel a $7-$10 million/piece Kfir jets but still our country were not able to acquire it...
« Last Edit: December 16, 2005, 03:49:09 PM by gritpaladin »


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Re: Merged: L39 / L159 for the PAF
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2005, 05:31:12 PM »
Pricing can vary as per option. ang alam ko ang JDAM equipt na version cost around 15 Million at yung ordinary is 9 Million USD. As for re engining this plane the J 79 would be too much. How about the Skyhawk's engine? this plane is somewhat similar to the skyhawk.

As for the PADC, Aero Vodochody is partnered with AIDC of taiwan, how about tying PADC with Aero? Or follow Aero's path by making our S-211 derived PTF-XX Light combat aircraft? (Phil. Trainer-FIghter - designation)

Regarding the budget, dumating na tayo sa point na kailanagn natin mag invest. KFIR is all right so if KFIR is what we can afford then OK na but we also need this aircraft for secondary roles. OR if many find this aircarft we should re engineer the S-211 to be at par with this plane's capability


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Re: Merged: L39 / L159 for the PAF
« Reply #17 on: December 25, 2005, 10:32:23 AM »
At the roll-out it is said that the 72 aircraft for the Czech air force are valued at 23 billion crowns (715 million US-Dollars). On the export market, the L159A is likely to cost 14 to 16 million US-Dollars, it was stated in mid-1999.

the reason why they reduced the numbers is economical reasons.

Changing the engine will cost a lot of money that the buyer have to pay, its better to buy the plane as it is. You could probably get a god deal since:
1. they are surplus planes
2. you would be the first export customer

i can only guess but if they are sold new for 14 to 16 million US-Dollars you might get them for 10 million US-Dollars so 12 planes for 120 million US-Dollars! How much is this compared to the budget in AFP?


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Re: Merged: L39 / L159 for the PAF
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2006, 09:46:05 AM »
..basing on the specs of this baby it should fit current PAF needs,..and doesnt look too expensive as same generation fighters from the US. It uses NATO weapons. But there is another debate wether RP is prepared to go-off the US military assistance.

L159A Introduction
 The L159A is a single-seat light multi-role combat aircraft designed for a variety of Air-to-Air, Air-to-Ground and Reconnaissance missions. The aircraft is equipped with a state-of-the-art multi-mode radar for all-weather, day and night operations and it can carry a wide range of NATO standard stores including air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles and laser guided bombs. The L159A is in operational service with the Czech Air Force and in production.

L159A main features
Multi-Mode Pulse Doppler Radar
Advanced Human/Machine Interface wit Head-Up Display (HUD), Multi-Function Color Display (MFCD) and Hands-On-Throttle-And-Stick (HOTAS) controls
Avionics Integration based on MIL-STD-1553 databus
Accurate and autonomous navigation system with laser gyro based Inertial Navigation System (INS) and Global Positioning System (GPS)
Extensive in-flight recording and debriefing capability for video, audio, self-protection system, engine and aircraft parameters
On-condition maintenance and fatigue monitoring system for low operational cost and optimum use of aircraft service life
On-Board Oxygen Generating System (OBOGS), On-Board Inert Gas Generating System (OBIGGS) and Auxiliary Power Unit (APU) for self-contained operation with minimum support
Seven pylons for various stores
Ability to operate from semi-prepared airfields
"Best in its class" F124-GA-100 engine
Self-protection system installation and use of redundant systems for high level of survivability and flight safety
Multi Mission Flexibility in a Single Airframe
Air Interdiction
Close Air Support
Anti-Ship Missions
Air Defence
Counter Insurgency
Border Patrol
Tactical Reconnaissance
Main Operational Benefits of the L159 Design
Modular and adaptive design satisfying various customer requirements
Wide range of NATO compatible stores
Enhanced survivability
Superior handling qualities and high trust-to weight ratio
Advanced Human-Machine Interface
State-of-the-art systems and equipment
Data loading and recording systems support effective mission planning and debriefing
Ability to operate from semi-prepared airfields
Low acquisition and operational costs
L159A Basic Data
External dimensions:
Wing span
Length, overall
Height, overall 
9.54 m
12.72 m
4.87 m
31 ft 3 in
41 ft 8 in
16 ft
Weight empty
Max ramp weight
Max fuel weight
- internal
- external
Max external stores
4,350 kg
8,000 kg

1,547 kg
1,620 kg
2,700 kg
9,590 Ib
17,637 Ib

3,410 Ib
3,571 Ib
5,952 Ib 
Max level speed at S/L 
936 km/h
505 KTAS
Power plant:
One 28 kN (6,300 lbst)
Honeywell/ITEC F124-GA-100
Military Turbofan Engine   
Design load factor:
Max structural limit

Power plant
The L159A is powered by the Honeywell/ITEC F124-GA-100 engine, clearly the "Best in Class". The F124 is a two-shaft, non-afterburning turbofan engine of modular design with three stage LP axial compressor. HP compressor has four axial stages followed by one centrifugal.

 High thrust-to-weight ratio provides the aircraft with superior performance and maneuverability. The engine is controlled by dual Full Authority Digital Electronics Control (FADEC) which automatically limits critical engine parameters and offers the pilot "unrestricted throttle movement" together with fast transient time and surge protection. Low engine bypass ratio results in better altitude lapse rate and superior Mach number performance. Modular design of the engine consists of seven basic modules. It provides complete interchangeability between engines that reduces spare count and simplifies maintenance.

Engine Monitoring System
An engine monitoring system (EMS) is embedded in the FADEC to provide data for life management, hardware tracking, and performance trend monitoring. Through computer-aided maintenance EMS reduces engine life cycle and support costs.

Secondary Power System
The secondary power system consists of a SAFIR 5F Auxiliary Power Unit (APU) for ground and in-flight engine start-up. APU also provides emergency hydraulic power for flight control system and drives standby electrical generator.

Engine Performance
(Sea level, static, 15°C/59F)
Max thrust
Inlet Airflow
Qualification MIL-E-87231 and MIL-STD-1783
Bypass Ratio
Overall Pressure Ratio 
28.2 kN
79.2 kg/hr/kN
42.7 kg/sec

3,330 lb
0.777 lb/hr/lb
94.1 lb


Advanced Crew Station
The L159A crew station employs advanced integrated displays and controls providing pilot with exceptional level of situational awareness.

Advanced Cockpit Configuration
Stroke and raster capable Head-Up Display is the primary flight instrument and weapon aiming system in the cockpit.
Multifunction Colour Displays provide tactical and navigation information and weapon system status.
Hands-On-Throttle-and-Stick (HOTAS) concept enables pilot to control the aircraft without removing hands from either throttle, or the stick.

Communication, Navigation and Identification Equipment
Dual VHF/UHF radios
Ring Laser Gyro with embedded GPS
Air Data Computer
IFF Transponder
Advanced Avionics System
 The L159’s avionics system meets multimission requirements and provides capabilities comparable to latest front-line fighters and attack aircraft. The basic system performs following functions:

Target Sensing
Controls and Displays
Stores Management
Communication, Navigation and Identification
Self Protection
Data Loading and Recording
System can be offered with several capability levels reflecting specific customer needs.
Targeting Sensor
The L159A version is equipped with FIAR GRIFO L Multi-Mode Pulse Doppler Radar that very effectively enables to engage targets at very long ranges.

Radar Operational Modes
Air-to-Air Search
5 Modes
Track While Scan
Up to 8 targets tracking
Air Combat
4 Submodes
9 Ground and Sea Modes
The L159A – Compatibility with Wide Range of Stores
Stores Management System
Seven hardpoints
MIL-STD-1760 compatibility
Wide range of NATO standard weapons including air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles
The L159A also has provisions for future addition of new weapons including medium range air-to-air missiles, special pods for ECM, reconnaissance, night navigation and targeting.

Weapons and Stores

Survivability Enhancement and Self - Protection Equipment
The self-protection system is an open modular and can be upgraded or simplified according to customer operational and training needs. Small size and very low infra red signature of aircraft reduce probability of detection.

Radar Warning Receiver
Countermeasures Dispensing System
Cockpit Composite/Ceramic Ballistic Protection
Fuel Tanks Inerting System (OBIGGS)
Provision for ECM Pod
Escape System
 The L159 aircraft escape system is an integrated system which allows safe escape at altitudes and speeds within the aircraft flight envelope including zero height and zero speed. The L159 escape system comprises lightweight fully automatic VS-2C ejection seat and a canopy jettison system.

Aircraft Monitoring System
The L159A aircraft is equipped with Aircraft Monitoring System (AMOS). The system consists of on-board and ground equipment for performing the following tasks

Collecting, processing and recording information on aircraft systems and flight loads
Automated data retrieval
Tracing the aircraft operation in accordance with airframe fatigue (Fatigue Monitoring System)
Flight incidence recording (crash recorder)
Integrated troubleshooting
Automated data transfer to the aircraft maintenance management system
Mission debriefing
Mission Planning, Debriefing and Data Transfer Aids
Dual channel video recording
Data Transfer System
AMOS debriefing capability
Optional RWR recording capability
Integrated Autopilot and Yaw Damper provides following modes

Attitude Hold
Heading Hold
Altitude Hold
Aircraft Maintenance
 The L159 aircraft is designed for high reliability and short Mean Time of Technical Repair (MTTR) The L 159 concept enables:

Two or Three level Maintenance Concept according to customer requirements
Fault identification and analysis by the means of Built-In Test Equipment
Very simple pre-flight, turn-around and post-flight servicing with no requirement for special tools or equipment.
The lowest maintenance costs in its category due to high reliability
Capability of autonomous operation from remote airfields
Life Time Logistic Support
Logistic Support Analysis in accordance with MIL-STD-1388-1A/2B
Computer based training aids
Complete range of conversion-to-type maintenance training
Recommendations are provided for repair facilities following a site survey
Complete set of GSE includes test equipment, tools and base equipment

5.4.2006 APRIL 5, 1959: L-29 DELFIN MAIDEN FLIGHT

« Last Edit: May 06, 2006, 09:47:50 AM by kenshin »
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Re: Merged: L39 / L159 for the PAF
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2006, 03:33:21 PM »


Length 12.98m
Height 4,78m
Wingspan 9.11m
Wingspan including missiles 9.17m
Empty weight 6,263kg
Maximum take-off weight without external payload 8,890kg
Maximum take-off weight with external payload 11,974kg
Type 1 x General Electric F404-102 turbofan 
Engine length 4,030mm
Engine diameter 880mm
Engine dry weight 1,035kg
Take-off power rating 78.7kN
Maximum level speed Mach 1.4
Maximum altitude 14,500m
Manoeuvrability +8g to -3g
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Re: Merged: L39 / L159 for the PAF
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2006, 10:56:06 AM »
Both fighters may work great for the PAF since both can be used for a variety of roles and are cheap (as all trainers are). Instead buying "expensive" high end fighters, why does our country didn't consider using trainers for Air Defence roles, I mean, we only use fighters for our defence don't we? So why buy all this expensive western (read: not cheap russian fighters) fighters when we could buy much cheaper (literally, including maintenance costs and fuel consumption) jet trainers.

Speaking of trainers. Why not buy more S211's and BAe Hawk 200's for our air defence needs. We could form short-ranged intercept squadrons using those planes.

Each squadron would be arranged in groups of seven or eight, six S211's and two Hawk's. The Hawk 200's would provide radar tracking and  air combat command (ala mini AWACS)  to direct the radarless S211's in making an intercept. (The Hawks would also engage the enemies, Two Hawk's per squadron so the squadron won't go blind when one of the Hawk's got shot down. Also, the Hawk's would provide ECM capabilities)

I chose the S211's since the type is already operated by the Air Force. The Hawk 200 is a single-seat, radar-equipped, light fighter (the 200 series  is derived from the 60 series two-seat, radarless,  jet trainer) with performance simmilar or exceeding the S211's.

We could arrange four squadrons to protect key regions in our country. One each for Northern Luzon, Southern Luzon/Visayas, Palawan, and the Southern Mindanao Area.

The money saved should go for the F-5A's and B's service life extension program. The remaining "servicable" F-5's would be used as a Maritime Attack Fighter and should be based on Palawan.

Also, replace those faulty AIM-9B's for god's sake!

BAe's Hawk 200 light fighter
British Hawks were used by the RAF once as a short-ranged interceptor during the Cold War.

The SIAI Marchetti S211

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Re: Merged: L39 / L159 for the PAF
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2006, 09:26:42 PM »
The Royal Airforce used a simmilar tactics during the 1980's. They used the radarless Hawk T.1 in collaboration with Tornado F.3's. The Tornado's used their radars in directing the Hawks against enemy targets.

I suggest that we eqquip our S211 with two AIM-9L and a 25mm ADEN cannon on the centerline gun pods. They would work perfectly in collaboration with the BAe Hawks :evil:

Adding, the type can be also used for ground support and maritime attack roles. Plus, trainers are known for their maneuverability.. they can out turn any large fighters though they lack the speed to persue supersonic targets.

It will be also much cost effective.

Each of such squadrons would be able to operate 100nm from their home base.
It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder. - Albert Einstein


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Re: Merged: L39 / L159 for the PAF
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2006, 03:55:03 AM »
I like the plane although as a trainer it would be hard for it to fight it out with 5th Gen fighter planes. But since PAF can only support a single type of aircraft for the 7th TFS and the 100 training wing this plane would suffice. This plane can also be used by the 15th Strike wing


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Re: Merged: L39 / L159 for the PAF
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2006, 09:54:26 AM »
The BAe Hawk 200 is too agile for a trainer based light fighter. It can reach Mach 1.2 on a dive.
Too bad, we can't yet buy expensive, high ticket, fighters... and our government would not consider Russian fighters...  :cry:
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Re: Merged: L39 / L159 for the PAF
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2006, 02:18:58 AM »
Rocket launchers case goes to jury
SECURITY AVIATION: Lawyers focus on war-hungry cadre, weapons.

Anchorage Daily News

Published: May 26, 2006
Last Modified: May 26, 2006 at 04:03 AM

As the government tells it, Security Aviation principal Rob Kane single-mindedly sought military jets and was eager to arm them for an ambitious project in the Philippines that could bring the company $20 million to $200 million.

What happened at the air charter company was "an elaborate deception," assistant U.S. attorney Steven Skrocki told jurors Thursday during his closing argument in the trial of Security Aviation and Kane on federal weapons charges.

New owner Mark Avery was so eager to buy Security last summer that he paid $8 million cash -- $1 million more than the asking price -- in a deal that closed in just 16 days, Skrocki said, using a computer display to illustrate his argument. Avery installed Kane as his top man, and it was Kane's intent to use the rocket launchers that are at the center of the charges, Skrocki said.

Over eight days of testimony and argument, the government contended the two launchers are dangerous destructive devices that are illegal to possess or transport.

Defense lawyers have argued the launchers are harmless showpieces found at air shows and in museums all around the country. They contended the government's case amounted to nothing more than rumor, innuendo and speculation.

Security simply was expanding with an infusion of new people and hopes of international operations, the company's lawyer, former federal prosecutor Robert Bundy, argued to jurors.

"For that we got the grandest conspiracy theory imaginable," Bundy said.

Neither Kane nor Avery testified in the trial.

The case went to the jury shortly after noon. The panel ended deliberations for the day about 4:30 p.m. after requesting the rocket pods be brought to the jury room.

As Skrocki gave his closing argument, Kane, a tall man with close-cut hair, scribbled notes on a yellow legal pad as he has throughout the trial. Avery, a former prosecutor who sat behind the defense table, leaned back with his eyes shut.

The two are the new faces of Security Aviation, Skrocki said. They were so intertwined, they bought each other rare World War II collectors planes, he said, a $2.4 million F-4U Corsair for Kane and a $1.4 million P-51 Mustang for Avery.

It was Kane, the prosecutor said, who bought a fleet of Czech-built L-39 military jets for his new employer; at one point Security had 12 of the jets.

Kane asked others to prepare a proposal to use the jets for training in the Philippines. The Philippines' government has no active fighter fleet. The idea was to deliver a small air force to that country, Skrocki said.

The planes would be left there, and Filipino pilots would be trained in aerial intercepts, electronic warfare, air-to-ground or sea combat, and other areas including protecting against piracy. Security Aviation, or its subsidiary High Security Aviation, would make either $20 million or $200 million from the deal; the amount varied by witness.

Kane pushed others to meet deadlines for that project, and the acquisition of the launchers fit right into the timeline, Skrocki said.

Kane's wife, Karen, is from the southern Philippine island of Mindanao, where at least two insurgent organizations, one affiliated with al-Qaida, are operating. When the FBI searched their Eagle River home Feb. 2, Karen Kane told agents her husband may have hunted terrorists in the Philippines at the request of the U.S. government.

Skrocki repeated defense claims that Karen's father is a high-ranking officer in the Philippine navy, but in reality he owns a funeral home and is involved in the Philippine coast guard auxiliary, a voluntary group.

Throughout the trial, the intimidating-looking launchers -- essentially 16 tubes encased in a gray metal cylinder -- have sat in the center of the courtroom.

Skrocki thumped the launchers several times during his talk, once telling jurors, "that's a weapon of war." Security Aviation employees and consultants who said otherwise had blinders on, he said. Former military pilots who worked for Security were thrilled with the chance to fly fighters again and didn't want the party to end, Skrocki said.

The government's experts said they were destructive devices, fully wired, and ready to fire, he reminded jurors.

But defense lawyers said the government had overreacted. Kane's attorneys, including two former state prosecutors, put the blame for Security's troubles on its former head L-39 mechanic, John Berens.

Kevin Fitzgerald, one of the defense attorneys, told jurors that Berens is "a man in whose wake destruction and even death followed."

Berens is a key part of the government's case. He testified that he asked another Security consultant, German L-39 expert Bernd Rehn, about the launchers and was told they were "good to go." He said he then passed that along to Kane and others. But Rehn told jurors he just meant they could be attached to the planes.

Berens suddenly quit at the end of 2005 then went to work briefly for Air USA Inc. of Quincy, Ill., which had sold L-39s to Security. He helped the company repossess four L-39s, clearing two to fly on Jan. 23. Two days later, one crashed in Ketchikan in bad weather, killing the pilot.

Security Aviation's business was in the open, Fitzgerald said. The company reached out to Anchorage police, the Transportation Security Administration and others.

As far as Kane knew, the launchers had been demilitarized, Fitzgerald said. It was company director of business development Jim Mendenhall who spotted "de-mil'd" launchers on eBay as he browsed for patches to promote the L-39s, and Kane just gave the go-ahead, Fitzgerald said.

And if they weren't, who could blame Kane? the defense lawyer said. There's no clear government standard for demilitarization. One government witness, with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, told jurors that determinations are made case by case, he said.

Bundy, representing the company, told jurors they should consider the launchers as just part of a weapons system, like the cylinder of a revolver. The cylinder alone isn't a weapon, and the launcher shouldn't be considered one either, Bundy said.

"This is designed to work with an aircraft as part of a fairly complicated system," Bundy said.

"They have to prove we knew this thing was somehow capable of firing these rockets and they can't do it," he said.


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Re: Merged: L39 / L159 for the PAF
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2006, 02:21:45 AM »
Security Aviation: jury gets the case
By Matthew Simon, CBS 11 News Reporter 

Prosecutors and defense attorneys finished their closing arguments with fiery comments Thursday. And now the fates of two men accused of plotting to use military jets and weapons inappropriately, rests in the hands of twelve men and women.
The jury in this case had about four and a half hours to reach a decision Thursday afternoon, after three hours of closing arguments in the morning.

They called off their decision-making and they have not yet reached a decision at this point.

They are weighing a lot of evidence. But at the heart of everything are the rocket pod launchers. Will the jury agree with prosecutors and 
say Security Aviation and the guy alleged to have OK'd their order, Robert Kane, intended to use the rocket pod launchers as destructive devices? Or were they just decorations, as the defense claims, that Security planned on using in one of their military air shows?

Pilot Steven Freeman was killed while repossessing one of Security's, so called, military training jets, similar to ones the company recently showed off with pride.

In closing arguments, federal prosecutors say this crash was the end result of Security officials who had gone into a tailspin of massive debt, unable to pay their bills, including the bill for the plane that crashed.

That military jet was among a fleet of twelve, prosecutors say, Security officials had promised Philippine government officials. The end result was apparently to supply the South Pacific country with an air force fleet. Prosecutors say it was a deal worth up to two hundred million dollars and the reason why within eight months of the old company's buy out, prosecutors say Security's new owner was in such a hurry.

The feds say former Anchorage prosecutor Mark Avery, put his consultant, Kane, in charge, but left him off all the paper 
work. And soon Kane allegedly ordered twelve military jets and the rocket pods the feds say Kane and Security officials planned to use as destructive devices.

Prosecutors reminded jurors that many of their witnesses, including Security's former head military mechanic had echoed that same story. The mechanic testified he heard Kane say he was ready for target practice the day the rocket launchers arrived and even had Lasic eye surgery because he was so concerned about possibly being sent to a Philippine war zone.

But the defense called that key witness a disgruntled employee and went as far as calling him poison to everything he touched. The defense says the mechanic was only concerned about saving himself and came up with this far-fetched story to cover up the fact he had OK'd the plane --the one that crashed in Ketchikan -- to fly. It is the pilot dieing in the crash- Freeman's death- both sides are blaming on each other.

That is among a massive amount of evidence jurors must make their way through. It is a lot of technical evidence, including a rocket pod manual. There is no telling how long it could take to get through all that. On the other hand, it's a holiday weekend and jurors usually don't like to go into something like that with a big decision weighing on them. CBS 11 News will keep you updated


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Re: Merged: L39 / L159 for the PAF
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2006, 04:57:49 AM »
I don't believe that crap! The prosecution and the defense are using the Philippines.

Where would we get the money? Congress did not allocate money for the purchase of that old jets. If we are really desperate, all we have to do is to put back in service our mothballed F5A jets, I think five jets are still in good condition.
Unless the intention of the company is to establish an aviation school here in RP to train Filipino and Foreign fighter pilots.

I hate the accused for making it look like the Philippines is an african country where mercenaries are roaming in the jungle.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2006, 05:01:35 AM by el_commandante »
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Re: Merged: L39 / L159 for the PAF
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2006, 06:27:55 AM »
Sounds like it. Maybe theyve been reading this site and got this to get our from the trouble they are in right now. Or maybe the opposition is buying those planes to  attack Malacañang.LOL


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Re: Merged: L39 / L159 for the PAF
« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2006, 07:03:33 AM »
Medyo bola-bola nga kuwento nila, including the part about the "high-ranking officer in the Philippine navy".  :tongue:

It is possible that the people in this company actually thought they really were dealing officially with the AFP. Maybe they really did believe that Kane's father-in-law was top brass and that they'd be able to involve themselves in the fighting in Mindanao. Either that, or they could just be pathological liars, stuck in their own little dreamworld. :tongue:


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Re: Merged: L39 / L159 for the PAF
« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2006, 05:56:52 PM »
According to this book I am quoting from we had already placed an order for the L 59

Green W. & Swanborough G. "Observers Aircraft" 1992/93 Edition, Frederick Warne & Co 1992, p 6

"Production of the L39 continues in parallel with the L 59 (Nigeria having ordered 30 and the Philippines 18 during 1991)."